Reminder about different language backgrounds

Postcrossing Suggestions
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Edited to add by myself - 3rd June 2023 :

This post was flagged by someone and I got an automated notice about it that s/he thought this post was off topic. Just one silent flagging button suddenly and s/he wanted this post to be deleted. I now have a right to edit this post, so I would like to ask the person who actually pressed the flag botton to contact me directly via a private message about this matter and explain why.

Just one silent flagging button for this post by me by someone suddenly sounds so unfair to me as s/he probably just wanted to make me feel even smaller publicly. S/he could have politely told me that s/he thinks this post by me is somehow off-topic in this thread, which s/he did not…

I hope this is still on topic.

I once had a serious discussion somewhere on the Postcrossing forum in English with several more people including native English speakers.

This one native English speaking person told me publicly I was harassing this other member in the thread so I should stop that. Then, I explained publicly I was not harassing the person. I was just trying to have some discussion regarding certain postcards.

Then, I sent the person a private message and asked her to delete the post where she insisted that I was harassing this other member because it seemed like the person was harassing me by saying that publicly and making me feel small. Then she said she would not delete it and she would stand by what she said publicly. And this person even laughed like, ha ha ha, in private message to me with the same attitude. So, I eventually messaged the person back privately to tell now it is you that is harassing me.

Then this person stopped messaging me back privately.

I did not find this Postcrossing experience friendly, polite or respectful at all…

So, I would still suggest the same as in above and ask for further understanding.

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I get, that different backgrounds can lead to a missunderstanding on how posts are understood by othres. Something well intended might come off as mean or aggressive etc.

However, I am not sure this is solely a language thing. It could also often be the fact that you only read what people write - you can’t listen to how it is said, in what tone and you can not see the speaksers facial impressions. I often find peoples tones out of line even when reading posts in my own language (not only on this forum). People sometimes try to be funny or sarcastic and don’t mean things the way others, who only see a text to read might understand it.

I often read posts that I think are very offensive or harsh (English and German) and others don’t seem to be offended in any way by it. So I guess it is also depending on what we (the individual user) think how people should interact with each other. It can be a cultural thing but also a very individual thing depending on the people we surround ourselves with and how we interact with them.

I think what I am trying to say is: We should alway be respectful with each other - depending on what language level someone is on. We should always remember how we would react to a post that we just wrote before senidng it.

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@Robinchen

Yes, I also think respecting each others is important on this forum, and as you know, it is already mentioned on the guidelines as well as to be friendly and polite.

But there are times when I think something is wrong more or less on this forum, an international platform where native English speakers and non-native English speakers exist when communications happen here and there in English.

While there are native English speakers who can react very fast naturally and can read and/or write very fast in English and feel comfortable with all of these, I think you can understand very well that there are non-native English speakers who are struggling more or less about the communications in English and maybe even feel uncomfortable somewhere, like, especially when they are called rude or mean or something.

What I mean is that while @S_Tuulia can handle really good English with a good observation, I think she thinks a reminder of some sort would be helpful for people in general, as mentioned above, where you already read, about showing understanding.

Now, my question for you, if I may ask :

Do you think a reminder of some sort, to show understanding, will help all in all ? If you ask me, I say yes, as people would stop and think twice at least before posting when there is a reminder, in English.

Thank you for your time in advance!

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Yes, that’s not friendly.
You can always flag the message. You can flag also the private message. Or I think, you can also publicly write here/in that topic, you feel it’s harrassing, so the writer clearly knows, and others too see how you feel.

But: sometimes this doesn’t help. (I don’t know what should be done then?) One person suddenly wrote a public analysis about me, not friendly, in a topic that was not about me. She even wrote something that she understood I might not like it, before the message. I replied “please don’t”, but she didn’t take it away, and weirdly many members liked this negative off topic message.

It was night here then, another member had wrote to me they tried to flag it, but couldn’t. In the morning I tried the same, and it did say, the flagging was checked and there is nothing wrong :dizzy_face: The message was not even about what I wrote in that topic, but what I had sometimes written or done, or their interpretation of that, so I felt like this person kept notes about me and maybe waited for the moment to vomit it out :smile: Or, they mixed me with another person? But how was she not called rude, or having bad manners?

I am fine with someone not liking me. But those types of messages really look like this place is not moderated at all and if someone is nervous about their English skills, it is not welcoming or friendly looking they might get such “treatment”.

And yes, moderators are people too, not all them maybe good with English, and of course they like some member more than the other, but I don’t know if it’s worrying or comical that someone looked that flagged post and decided, yes, it’s ok to keep this here, and apparently thought it was friendly (?) :laughing:

(Then the whole topic was deleted, and some members asked about this too, why I deleted it (I didn’t) because it was interesting topic, so maybe I need to start it again, or someone else should, but I know it’s scary then, if they are target of such analysis too.)

So, here the negative analysis writer, why didn’t she earlier ask if I meant it like she thought?
Instead she kept it to herself, sure that she is right. I wish I had such confidence, but then, happy I don’t if that’s how it can turn out. And to me it looked only like huge hate mail. Or a four years old.

Also there was some profile called rude, and the person too, when to me it was clear as a day it was a language differency, they even had words from their own (?) language. In these types of situation really the more understanding should happen, and not “wait” the other one learns better. Here the person wasn’t even on the forum, and I can imagine they won’t have any interest either.

These examples, the ones not good in English, how could they prevent that?
They can’t think what they do wrong, if there is no slot for that. No one told something is wrong. Some don’t even know they are so badly misunderstood, they can’t think of a way to express themselves in other way, because no one told about it.

I don’t know how the pop-ups work, but I’m thinking could there be some words that made it pop up, like rude. Maybe like the occassional reminder, every once in a while here would appear a reminder too, about using English, and showing understanding for “bad English”.

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(Sorry the long message, I hope I will learn to write shorter some day!)

I do think it could help a little, and if not directly, at once, it would still hold the athmosphere, that not good in English are welcome too, and it’s not that this is only for native English speakers or members on the same level. It would also remind that we do come from different cultures and have different habits. Yes, this goes without saying, we should know it, but a friendly reminder just reminds it.

(Similarly we should know we can send any card etc. but there is the reminder for that, and even when I don’t need it, I like seeing it :slight_smile: So i’m not suggesting I would decide what the reminder would say, but someone who knows how to make it sound friendly.)

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As I have said, people need to keep on improving and not the other way around.

Not sure why they keep on insisting that we need to go backwards (asking for more understanding) instead of thinking how to learn each other’s mistake and go forth.

How to grow your language skill by keep on asking for understanding?

This idea is not helpful at all.

+++++ Edited to add +++++

I mean to replied to this thread and not replying to delenn_mir. Sorry for my mistake.

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I feel this thread should be closed.

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It’s a skill too, to use same level language. It’s not “regressive”.
How does one improve, if they don’t know what needs improving?

By feeling safer to make mistakes and hence not fearing to try to use more complex language.

But of course not all find this useful if they already write here and feel their messages are taken well.
Then, I guess, it doesn’t harm to have the reminder.

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@Johnk60

Why do you feel this suggestion thread should be closed ?

On topic - what do you think about the reminder itself ?

I do not think closing this suggestion thread will help to make this forum in English a better place…

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Why?

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@nisnoopy3

May I kindly ask why you think we are going backwards when being asked to show understanding ??

I am very sorry but I do not think I got your point. Maybe that means my English is poor…

Basically, understanding each others is a good thing, no ?

What exactly do you think is wrong about showing understanding ?

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I never said a reminder would not help. But the reminder should not be for the usage of the English language. Like I said in my post missunderstandings can also happen out of cultural differences (some cultures are very promt and others more subtle) and because a written text could be meant different from how it is understood.

Of course I know that there are people here who are more confident using the english language than others and it is OK that way. Noone should feel excluded because they do not feel confident enough to use the english language.

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There is really no way to avoid making a cultural faux pas in translations. More than likely the message once translated is just lost in translation.

Maybe add something in general that focuses on translations in general as not being 100% accurate when translating idiomatic expressions, and/or acronyms.

Basic English -A on the Global Scale of English-GSE is not really the solution. This info is what you could find on the bio., i.e., name, status, gender, pets, likes and dislikes.

Let me reiterate that AI -ChatGPT will probably make this topic a moot point very soon.

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@Robinchen

Thank you.

Hmm, to me, at least, it is clear enough that @S_Tuulia 's suggestion regarding a reminder is good enough, probably it is because I am the one myself too who would really appreciate it if people generally stop and think twice at least before they post on the forum whenever people want to respond to me in English.

If there were such a reminder, to show understanding, for the differences of our mother tongues, countries, cultures, upbringings, etc., I did not have to go through my negative experience that I previously mentioned above, where a native English speaker suddenly told me publicly I was harassing a certain person on the forum and laughed at me after all, like ha ha ha, in a private message, which is not friendly, polite or respectful at all, towards myself…

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Now, I have to admit, I don’t know if this is an example of lost in translation, a joke, or something else.
I don’t understand what reads there.

Which made (one of) my thought clearer:
This forum would be more accessible, if for example native speakers would use plain language (I guess it’s called this what you use to present for example professional ideas to people who aren’t familiar with your work terminology).

Because, there is the English language community, where they can use their language, just like in Finnish community we use Finnish. And yes, misunderstanding happen there too, but not so severe ones as here I have seen.

Here on the international part, good enough is good enough. There doesn’t need to be native level goal. Somehow this could be in the reminder too, in an understandable :slight_smile: way.

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Good morning, everyone.

@kanosis

So, you think Basic English is not a solution on the Global Scale of English and you say so as a native English speaker.

I actually do not think it is a solution either myself, but it would be of a help as a reminder more or less when added to the Postcrossing guidelines, because currently, it only says on the guidelines to Use English, which I do not think is good enough. That is my point as for general language usage on Postcrossing. And I say it as a non-native English speaker.

I already got feedbacks in this thread that Basic English is subjective. Okay then, it does not have to be called Basic English if you find it hard to understand what it is.

I actually meant elementary level and lower intermediate level of English when I mentioned Basic English, not really advanced level.

And I think I already mentioned why I came up with this suggestion above.

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I have read this whole thread and find all of it very interesting.

Doesn’t Postcrossing want to continue to grow its community? I believe on the main page it says that there are eight hundred thousand members and counting. That’s close to a million people. Granted, I know they are not all active. But if we are here to connect - to bridge gaps and to reach people in hard to reach places, to be inclusive and welcoming - I do not see what harm there is in adding some kind of note that acknowledges the very real and legitimate struggle that some people have in speaking English. If anything, even if it doesn’t change the behavior of anyone here who is comfortable enough speaking English and engaging in various discussions, it at least provides some kind of reassurance to the non-native English speaker that we are going to be supportive, considerate, and kind. It helps to set a tone, to let the person who may feel out of place - who may already be struggling with navigating either the main site or the forum (if they are new) - know that we see them, that we care, that we are here for them and want to help them have a positive experience.

I support the idea wholeheartedly.

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@mon23

Hello!

I am so touched and happy to see you support this idea wholeheartedly.

Thank you so much for reading this whole thread very carefully, including my comments above. Now I feel like all my efforts that I put in English as a non-native English speaker in this thread is well paid-off :slight_smile:

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@S_Tuulia Thank you for your suggestion. The team will take it into consideration.

I feel like we’ve heard enough opinions back and forth about it by now, and it’s time to close this topic, as the conversation no longer feels productive. Hope that’s ok.

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