Translating/Transcribing postcard messages

[catchycat]

@varn

In my opinion, the sender who wrote the message is the most vulnerable party in this case.

I agree, that’s why I think the community guidelines can be revised so they know that they won’t be in vulnerable position (as it will be revised there’s translation thread in the forum and receiver might post the message there if they don’t understand). Ofc with rules that some parts should be blurred

I don’t get the vulnerability here since I think like my post before, it’s better to control what you can control. I don’t understand what’s the vulnerability of generic messages without personal information written on the card when it’s shown in translation thread especially when users in general probably won’t even check it out if they don’t have issues. However, this is purely my opinion

@varn

Assume the sender wants the written postcard to be kept private. The burden of proof is on the receiver: to seek consent

Ideally the consent should be asked. But it’s often not applicable because the conditions I’ve mentioned in my previous post : sender doesn’t open email regularly, or maybe forget what they write there etc~

So of course people who are active in the forum (small number) and find out the translation thread normally would provide easier help there than “bothering” the sender to ask about the message or to ask about the consent (which is assumed will get longer time to notice). Thus why, back to your suggestion before that I agreed with, revising the guidelines will be practical and easier and let the translation thread as it is now (but perhaps delete the language community based translation tag since maybe they’re often go unnoticed by moderators)

@S_Tuulia

Recently there was a message written in block letters published. And to me it was clear block letters.

Hi, I haven’t checked the current post there but I’ve encountered this post , I find it weird too! But maybe individual ability to decrypt written messages are different. Other assumption… Maybe they’re just lazy LOL (but ofc this is rude to assume)

@S_Tuulia

Also, PO boxes aren’t available in all countries, for example in Finland.

Thank you for telling! I didn’t know about it, pardon my ignorance. ( I often draw P.O Box addresses so I assumed that it’s a thing in majority countries)

Also about name, I think if it’s only nickname or first name it won’t expose much privacy about the sender that’s concerning enough? Unless maybe that person live in a small village with only 10 villagers?
Even sometime some accounts in official site write personal things (like hi I’m XXXX 29, married, have 2 kids and live in YYY, I work as BBBB…). Imo, more vulnerable to creep attack since the official site gets more exposure than translation thread in forum. I know it’s different case but I hope you get my point

But then again, I’ve said it before, my naïve self doesnt believe that in general postcrossing users (especially in the forum) have ill intention to harm someone from postcard someone’s get and uploaded in translation thread. Maybe older members who’ve been in this platform can say more about whether they’ve experienced creepy stalker moment , and how often it is (but better not because sometime we can write too much lol and it’s OOT)

[S_Tuulia]

@catchycat

Other assumption… Maybe they’re just lazy LOL (but ofc this is rude to assume)

I think this too sometimes, or that they just see it easier to ask someone here write it to the screen, and they then copy to the translator.

Actually I’m not worried or thinking that any postcrosser would misuse the information muchly. I’m worried of the ones with a stalker, identity thefts, a lunatic ex etc., not giving them any material by accident. So it’s kind of a safety habit to learn not to publish everything just because one can do so.
(I think it’s every 6th woman have had a stalker, so it’s not a rare concern.)

[varn]

I’ve added it to the OP as an alternative which is my personal take. Simply put, I prefer Postcrossing Privata to Postcrossing Publica.

[Maria_Rus]

@delenn_mir

People post in other social media partially because they don’t come to the forum at all - they are some of those “unaware users”. I’ll just leave this point here for everyone to ponder.

Totally agree. There are so many users on the site, but not on the forum here. People post back sides of the cards in other social medias every now and then (I even run into a youtuber who reads the messages in his videos). And this happens way more often then here on the forum. So changing the way this thread works won’t make Postcossing more private.
I’m sorry, I fail to see a way to prevent back side of the card from being posted anywhere.
Maybe you could print special stickers with clear words “Please don’t share my text with anybody” and put them on your cards. I think that would help better.

[varn]

I see. This is Alternative 2 in the OP. To clarify, individual posting behavior is secondary to the system or the core concept of Postcrossing in the discussion here. Of course, it’d be interesting to see detailed analysis of the absorption effect but it won’t eliminate the structural problem identified here (again, see Recommended measure and Alternative 2 in OP).

The proposed measure is not meant to change or police everybody’s behavior but is intended to restore Postcrossing to a form closer to its inception (which I tend to believe matches @admins’ original concept). No need for Postcrossing to mimic other social media. With this said, I do there may be a market for two versions of Postcrossing: Postcrossing Privata and Postcrossing Publica. In the latter, everything is meant for posting online. For example, the sender can broadcast their written postcard immediately. The actual mailing is only an afterthought. Or it’s no longer addressed to an individual but a chat group instead. You get an address of a group and write a postcard to them and vice versa — a many-to-many model.

As I believe the Postcrossing we have now is private by default, I don’t think the translation thread in its current form is warranted to break an important guideline. Just because someone is breaking the law doesn’t mean that the law is pointless.

Postcrossing may acknowledge the potential inconsiderate publishing of postcard writings elsewhere but declares that it does not allow it within Postcrossing.

I do hope Postcrossing here can be kept as Postcrossing Privata as best as possible. Also, I would love to see yet another new postcard exchange site launched where writings are published by default.

[Frogglin]

@varn

Personally, posting outside of Postcrossing is a secondary concern.

Okay have I missed something?

You’re upset that people post the backs here in the forums - where admins can delete them if required due to personal information - but don’t care if someone posts the backs elsewhere?

What exactly has happened that has made you so convinced the translation topic is such a huge problem?

[varn]

To clarify, I said posting outside of Postcrossing is a secondary concern because it is less relevant to the measure that I’m pushing for. I’m not okay with that at all but that’s something out of Postcrossing’s control. If there is any discrepancy in my posts, my OP takes precedence.

[Frogglin]

And for my second question - What exactly has happened that has made you so convinced the translation topic is such a huge problem?

[varn]

I do not wish to discuss it in public because it may involve specific people or personal experiences. Then, again, the problem I’ve spotted is structural and it does not need “victims” to prove it true.

[Frogglin]

Okay. That is your right.

I would say though that the closing of the translation thread would mean more backs posted out in the wider internet, and complicating the process with a “PM me to help with this card” will mean more people will choose to just post it to Facebook or even twitter to get help because it’s easier.

Not to mention if it’s a handwriting issue, someone might offer to help and not be able to read the writing anyway, meaning it’s going to take longer to get help.

I would suggest the first post in the translation thread be updated to remind people to cover personal information before posting though.

[varn]

To add, I’m convinced because, at a conceptual level, I believe these two principles are integral to Postcrossing:

• Senders are the most vulnerable party
• Presumption of privacy

Some may argue that the senders are the most vulnerable party in the process because they give out their addresses. However, if we were to dwell on this point, Postcrossing in its current format will no longer hold (say, a centralized mail processing system would be required). So I also assume a certain trust level in the system but the official translation thread is encroaching on trust.

[varn]

@Frogglin

I would suggest the first post in the translation thread be updated to remind people to cover personal information before posting though.

So this is basically Alternative 1 in the OP.

[Cassisia]

You’re discussing your general problem and suggestions broadly in public, but if someone asks what exactly the problem is you refuse an answer. I find this strange, really.

I looked at the little statistics info on the main website. In the last hour 307 postcards were recieved. If I sum it up, this will make roundly 50.000 official postcards a week. That’s a conservative estimation, probably there are more.

In the last seven days, there were 6 postcard backs posted in the translation thread, one is from 1956, so there are 5 official cards’ backsides shown in extracts in this topic.

As you couldn’t mention any examples of data shown in other sections of the forum, we’re talking about 0,0001% of the official Postcrossing cards.

So I’m absolutely convinced that there isn’t the huge problem you’re painting here, which would require a change of the terms and conditions. They only should display the broad rules. I refer to my argument above.

And @varn, it would be really nice if you referred to my concern I voiced about posting private data in private messages, where the data will stay forever because moderators don’t see it and can’t delete it, and where’s the risk that the person displays the data elsewhere. If you don’t answer, then I’ll assume that I’ve hit the spot and you’re out of arguments.

[varn]

@Cassisia

As you couldn’t mention any examples of data shown in other sections of the forum, we’re talking about 0,0001% of the official Postcrossing cards.

Well, it’s somewhere on the forum, notably the translation thread, hence my proposal. If it’s elsewhere, apply the same measure there. A small but real chance here. Thanks for the calculations.

[Cassisia]

And again you’re completely ignoring the content of my argument.

What do you say about the fact that only 0,0001% of cards are affected by being shown in extracts in the translation thread? Only 5 out of 50.000? And the pictures will be deleted in time, which wouldn’t be the case if they were sent to others by private message.

[varn]

@Cassisia

What do you say about the fact that only 0,0001% of cards are affected by being shown in extracts in the translation thread? Only 5 out of 50.000?

Ditto. A small but real chance. I’d like to see the loophole plugged. Not worthwhile to bend the rules for that.

[Cassisia]

@varn

Not worthwhile to bend the rules for that.

The rules are not “bent”, there’s one small exception allowed. In German you call this “Ermessen”, juridical discretion.

[Frogglin]

Actually, @Cassisia has made a very good point regarding personal information.

Posting in the translation thread, people do (or should) cover all of that. Sending by PM feels more “private” and people may not bother.

There’s no loophole to BE plugged. A scant amount of cards get posted here, where they can be moderated, when people need help understanding them.

Every single “solution” you’ve suggested takes away that ability to moderate the cards and remove the ones with information showing. Every single suggestion pushes people out to other forums, other places on the web where they can’t be moderated.

I understand you’re upset about something that happened relating to the translation thread, but there isn’t a broader issue. You’re behaving like someone who dropped their keys down a drain and is now demanding all drains be closed over.

[varn]

@Frogglin

Every single “solution” you’ve suggested takes away that ability to moderate the cards and remove the ones with information showing. Every single suggestion pushes people out to other forums, other places on the web where they can’t be moderated.

Point invalidated in Alternative 2 in the OP.

@Frogglin

You’re behaving like someone who dropped their keys down a drain and is now demanding all drains be closed over.

It’s a vivid comparison. I’d rather say it’s one drain (translation or posting writings publicly) among all the other drains (sending, receiving, sharing non-writing portions, etc) that I want to see closed over.

[Frogglin]

@varn

I’d rather say it’s one drain (translation or posting writings publicly) among all the other drains (sending, receiving, sharing non-writing portions, etc) that I want to see closed over.

Yes, because something nebulous happened to you. To you personally. If that thing had happened to someone else would you be quite so stubborn on this?

Okay another example. Let’s say I put in my profile “Please do not send me spider cards” and someone does. Should I come to the forum and demand all cards are pre-screened by Postcrossing admins because I got something I don’t want? Even if I’m phobic and it gave me a fright?

Postcrossing is about a collective group of people, and there will be aspects that some people don’t like or don’t agree with or whatever. I don’t mean to be offensive here Varn, but you are just one of those people. You’re entitled, of course, to your very strong opinion.

(PS I love spiders and am not phobic, I just needed a good example of an unwanted type of card).