It is the same logic. Bad things happen in the world, but it doesn’t mean because bad things happen in the world, we should invite the same problem into our backyard. The two quantities – the number of postcards in the translation thread and the number of postcards in the world – are like a few versus infinity. I think we should instead try to keep our backyard clean (so should all the others, but we don’t have control).
Back to my OP, the merit that I see in my proposal is the trade-off between efficiency and fairness. I understand the measure upsets some people, but for those who are expected to bear the inconvenience in the scenario, I urge them to think about the people who may be upset by the temporary yet public posting of their postcard writings.
I wasn’t talking about the other fruits (Facebook,…), I was talking about the same fruit (Postcrossing site) in another store (direct messages).
This is the thing varn is suggesting (sending the pictures via direct message, not supervised by admins, without control of the resulting data) instead of the thread where the data is deleted.
It is a genuine concern that is better addressed in a new topic. Private storage is not the focus of the thread because if we insert this element into the argument and look at it from both sides, we’ll find out it doesn’t change the argument. Postcrossing private messages plus private messages outside of Postcrossing basically equals infinity, so once again:
If you want to focus on the stored images on Postcrossing only, then the same logic still applies. Here I assume there is already a great amount of personal information stored here (addresses, photos, etc.). An even more reasonable assumption is that a leak is way less likely than an exposure (which is already a certainty).
Glad you raised this concern. I thought about this too. Again, this concern merits another topic. And I would love to see what people think, for example, if they want an auto-delete feature.
To put it in the context of the proposed measure, let me use the same format. In terms of private messages,
Status quo
What is happening outside of the translation thread?
Many private messages
Blanket ban
What will happen if all the intended postcard backsides are permanently stored in Postcrossing private messages?
Still many as it looks like adding only a limited number to infinity.
So it does seem that we can address the two issues (public posting and data storage) one by one. It can of course be the reverse order. For example, whether or not an auto-delete feature is introduced to private messages here, the problem in the OP remains pretty much the same.
Ok. (I leave the fruits now, I think we understand.)
Published messages (translation thread) has same problems as private messages, plus public ones has the problem of people taking screenshots of it, and the image being stored in that persons phone too, plus and it being publicly visible also to people not in postcrossing, without the sender knowing about it. The fact that it is deleted, doesn’t mean it never was there.
Private messages are direct communication. When I have been asked for a translation, it has been about this way: “Hey I received this “id-number”, unfortunately I don’t know enough Finnish, could you help me translate it. I can take a photo if you don’ remember what you wrote.”
If one of the solutions include a problem that exists even before using it as a solution to this problem, doesn’t mean we should forget the problem the situation now has.
Guess it’s time to invite the sender to join the forum for exchanging photos. Then it circles back to the nature of forum being optional. And further back to the issue of fairness and what the core concept of Postcrossing is.
If it imposes too much of a burden on the sender, then let go. When we don’t have permission to publish, then it’s prudent not to. At least this respects the sender’s presumed privacy/will.
Yes, this is why I see it can be treated as different problem.
If the auto-delete is taken to private messages, I’m still not informed about my message possibly being published in the translate thread. @Cassisia do you understand now how I see it’s a different problem?
If you ask the general question whether members can delete messages and pictures sent by themselves or others in private messages, it’s a different topic.
The question knotted to varn’s “better use private messages” remains to be thought through in this topic.
It’s a problem of choice of who should be in care of and responsible for the “delete data” process:
Is it a sensible idea to put the responsibility for private data in the hands of members, by directing members in need of translation to the private message system, where no-one else knows what happens with the pictures?
Or is it better to keep the responsibility with the admins and moderators of the forum, by letting the members in need of translation find the translation topic where they may post the pictures in the open, to be deleted later?
I think this question is not so complicated or difficult to answer that you’d need another topic.
You and @varn treat the problem by acknowledging only black and white, not wanting to see that it’s a grey zone created by juridical discretion.
In my opinion, 100% data protection means no translation help at all, neither in a topic, nor via private messages.
If I follow you correctly, from a data security point of view, it is also safer for us to exchange mailing addresses in a public thread because it is deleted regularly instead of being permanently saved in private messages?
Are you making up another side topic to distract from the fact that you don’t want to answer my last question?
You’re the one suggesting to direct the members to exchange possibly sensible data by private messages, so choose your position, please. It’s not about adresses here.
(In the art of communication this diversionary tactic is called “Strohmannargument”, Red Herring. Instead of referring to the other’s position you imply something they didn’t say.)
Ok, we disagree on that then. (So I don’t try to explain more.)
Are you suggesting this problem should be dealt first, and only then the translation thread problem?
Now the published messages are in the hands of the members, and also non members. No one knows what happens to these pictures either, right? Are the ones who copy these photos deleting them, or storing in their cloud? For how long?
It’s is told members in need of translation are not finding to translation thread, because translating and message showing happens in large amounts elsewhere. (=Translation thread not necessary/not working how wanted).
If this is the only question and thought about data protection then yes, I will much rather have the translating happen in private message than publicly on the forum and I don’t see it significantly increasing the safety issue already happening.
Instead I worry a little the given false impression of the public translating being “safe” or safer.
Same problems are there. What is published in the Internet, is not unpublished.
Addresses get exchanged hundreds of times a day, whereas pictures in the translation thread get posted five a week. Addresses contain a lot more personal data directly linked to a person, whereas the written side of a postcard may just contain a postcard ID and a given name.
Please understand that it’s not about the exchange itself, but about the question whether the data can be easily located and deleted by the moderators.
They may discuss it here as they and others think it is relevant. You do not own this thread and are not a moderator. So, please stop telling people what is or is not in the scope of the discussion.
I think most of the participants on this thread have expressed their opinions and suggestions, so perhaps to avoid longer discussions which could derail the original topic, maybe we should wait untill there’s official respond to the thread
I’m still confused about the reasons you’ve given so let me paraphrase. The reason why I always refer to my OP is that I hope someone reads and follows my logic. If they don’t, I’ll try and see where our arguments part ways.
According to this comment.
Addresses contain a lot more personal data and require a safer way to exchange.
Private messages are safer than public moderated posts.
Therefore, private messages are preferred.
In case you feel I intentionally left out this point. In private messages, if you’re the one who sends the postcard image, you can delete it yourself. If you’re the translator, you can remind the other person if he hasn’t done so. As you’ve said multiple times, we Postcrossers are a community. A certain level of trust is assumed here.
Therefore, I don’t see justification in your point above why such private exchanges must be published just for the sake of seeing it get deleted. That’s also why I brought up the issue of addresses.
If you think addresses should be deleted regularly but are upset we can’t, then following your position, it’s be better to publish our addresses in a public thread and let admin moderate.
But you said we should not publish our addresses.
That’s the contradiction in your argument.
Put in another way,
If you think it’s safe and okay for our addresses to be stored permanently in private messages here, then it follows that it’s also safe and okay to store postcard images in private messages.
You don’t think it’s safe and okay to store postcard images in private messages.
Therefore, you don’t think it’s safe and okay for addresses. Again, contradiction.
Hope you understand where I come from by calling some arguments invalid.
According to this earlier comment.
Postcard pictures may or may not contain personal information.
If a postcard contains no personal information, it is better for it to be posted in a public moderated thread.
So what if a postcard does contain personal information? I sense you assume:
Nothing else on a postcard except the address and name is personal information.
Referring back to my OP, I gather that you support
Presumption of publicity
Even if the message may contain what the sender thinks is personal information, according to your presumption, all postcard messages are public. You maintain postcard messages can be straight away posted publicly. That means you think it’s impossible for a postcard message to contain any information that requires the same level of treatment as addresses.
Presumption of publicity is the opposite of presumption of privacy. The community guidelines treat postcards as private. So I think it’s reasonable to request such a switch in fundamental position to be mentioned. This leads to “Alternative 1 Revise guidelines”.
You’re for “Alternative 2 Keep status quo” and think this switch from presumption of privacy to presumption of publicity is trivial, or borrowing your words, lies in the juridical gray zone, so no need to mention.
I’m for a blanket ban because I think the presumption of privacy is fundamental to the concept of Postcrossing. I’m fully aware of the risk of postcards being unknowingly published, but it is the integrity of the Postcrossing concept that I want see honored to the utmost. I guess that may be the reason why the forum is an option. It may be a technical constraint that the main site and the forum cannot be seamlessly integrated. But opt-in forum membership is obviously is a choice made by Postcrossing team. So would also love to hear @admins’s official stance on this.
Again, we don’t need to agree with each other. As I’ve emphatically repeated myself many times, the presumption of privacy is fundamental and is what makes Postcrossing special. In my opinion, it is Postcrossing’s niche and I guess many non-forum members think so too. When the presumption of privacy is broken, I can of course still exchange postcards, just that Postcrossing is no longer what I thought I signed up for. That’s why I’m building a case here.
I sincere believe this was only a benign oversight on Postcrossing’s part. If it were more thoroughly thought through, the translation thread wouldn’t have existed in its current form. So once again, I urge everyone, including those who disagree or are neutral, to revisit the parts and parcels of my argument and see if it can help you understand our differences. You may have your own logic and so far I’ve tried my best to identify the exact points that we disagree on (such as principles, pros and cons and even high-level assumptions). Through this effort I’m confident we can understand each other and find common ground.