Translating/Transcribing postcard messages

Postcrossing Suggestions
158

Thanks for highlighting this important point.

It surely is. After my demonstration of the problem in the OP, I seek understanding from the translation/transcription camp, and all the other Postcrossers as well, to support the blanket ban I propose.

Even if this ban is implemented, there are still many things we can translate on postcards such as printed texts on the front or captions on the back, which people are already doing here and which I think is a great mutual learning activity. But as with the writings/messages, I urge Postcrossing team to leave them out completely.

Welcome back (I thought you said you were out) and please refer to my OP. At least a debate can be constructive and does not violate the community guidelines.

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159

I have been reading the whole thread for the last 2-3 days and do understand your point of view. But, it doesn’t necessarily mean that I support your idea to ban the translation thread (not that banning it would cause me great inconvenience because I can always use google translate or Postcrossing members from the specific country for help).

I don’t find the thread as problematic as you describe because only a few cards are posted there and it is fairly moderated. Your whole argument seems to be that there is an exception to the rule and that it needs to be resolved. But, I find the exception a sensible one. So, I find the whole debate rather an academic one.

@varn , I do appreciate you putting so much effort to discuss an issue that you feel passionately about and compiling all the arguments. I look forward to what the final verdict is from the PC team :slight_smile:

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160

I’m about done feeding the thread here which I have my suspicions about honestly but they’re not worth airing.

However. I moderate for a living. It’s my paid job to moderate forums and facebook for companies. On one of those forums there is a strict rule that users cannot ask for health advice. People who come in and say “Hey I have a headache what could it be?” have their threads closed and deleted, because it is a strict rule. Except there is ONE thread where health advice can be asked for. One single large thread where all those questions can go. Why? Because of the forum topic, which can require health information and because having it all in one place means it is easier to moderate and make sure no one is breaking any of the other rules.

The translation thread is the same thing. It is an exception because of the nature of postcrossing. It is in one place for easy moderation and so people can find it when they need it. It is there because we have so many languages and Google translate doesn’t always make sense (for example, I see some posts in there explaining phrases that don’t make sense directly translated to English and a native speaker has helped explain what they mean). I also see mostly card fronts and stamps.

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161

Thanks for writing in. Feel free to ask questions if there is any unclear point in my OP.

Thanks for the input which is a prime example of appeal to authority. Pardon me if I can’t find any new points to add to or revise my main argument in the OP.

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162

To me this only shows that the “one thread”-method isn’t working either, if another threads still are opened and needs to be closed?

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163

Let me refer to the forum you mentioned as Forum A.

  • Is Forum A similar to Postcrossing which consists of two components: a main site with limited user interactions and a forum like this?
  • Is the exception to the no-seeking-health-advice in Forum A intentionally kept implicit and the moderators expect users to learn of it through observation (if not accidentally breaking it themselves)?
  • As with the health advice questions people sometimes ask on Forum A, do they involve a third party (in addition to the person asking and forum members being asked)? In the Postcrossing case here, the writings involve the sender.
    • Perhaps people also ask questions for their relatives or friends.

I’m curious how exactly the case of Forum A can be applicable to Postcrossing as demonstrated in the OP. Your clarification will also legitimize your appeal to authority. So far the jump between the two paragraphs looks fuzzy to me.

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164

But that’s because many people don’t read the community guidelines properly or at all, or don’t understand them. Or just can’t be bothered to think about the right place to post.

Just as it happens here, multiple times a day, for all kinds of topics - posts which then can be moved or merged quite easily by the moderators.

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165

I am out of the content of debate. I have not contributed to it since declaring so. However, I am watching in horror as your tell people their viewpoints are invalid and brushing all questions that threaten your argument aside as if they have never been asked…as if your get to be the decider of what is discussed, even to the point of repeatedly changing the thread title after being asked by a mod not to. I find your approach to be that of a bully. And yes, I believe that type of rudeness goes against community guidelines. I do not believe this thread is in good taste at all and am having trouble seeing, at this point, what purpose it is serving.

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166

New users don’t always read the rules when they join the forum, and others feel the rules don’t apply to them.

No. But thank you for this comment, it tells me everything I need to know about your motives here, and those motives have little to nothing to do with the translation thread.

You can continue to insist you’re wanting discussion, but you absolutely do not.

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167

Sorry if the term I used offended you @Frogglin. Appeal to authority can be legitimate.

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168

I’m not offended in the least, but it is nice to have clarity as to where you’re coming from.

169

Good. Would appreciate it if you could clarify some points I raised about Forum A and see if there’s anything we can learn and apply here and how exactly it would be a direct application.

As in the OP, from what I think are the two cornerstones of Postcrossing:

  • Senders are the most vulnerable party as far as the message part is concerned
  • Presumption of privacy
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170

Yes, like I wrote; one thread method isn’t working there either.

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171

Ordinarily, I would. However, in this case I feel you are being disingenuous and since I am not entirely sure of your motives, I no longer wish to engage with you or this thread.

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172

He is only staying in topic.
Some are trying to distract to other topics and problems, which of course can be discussed in another threads.

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173

Since no further clarifications on Forum A, it seems that a blanket ban of public posting of postcard writings does not contradict the cited argument above. The translation thread will remain but it will be inconvenient to get a translation/transcription for a written message. The bar should be intentionally set high for this case. That is the part of efficiency I suggest be traded for fairness and for the integrity of the Postcrossing concept.

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174

[edited forum name to make it sound less aggressive or presumptuous] Since the absorption effect emerges as one point of contention, let me rephrase from an imaginary moderator’s perspective. Assume someone is tasked with moderating Forum X with a specific focus on public posting of the backsides. Here’s his scope of work in two scenarios.

Status quo

  • For postcard backsides posted in the translation thread, screen the following:
    • Address
    • Postcard ID
    • Message
      • Language (whether it is English or not)
      • Content (judge if there is anything, both English and non-English, written that amounts to privacy)
  • For postcard backsides posted elsewhere in the forum
    • Delete or redirect to the translation thread and screen
  • What is happening outside of Forum X?
    • Many questionable sharing activities

Blanket ban

  • For postcard backsides posted in the translation thread
    • Delete if it shows postcard writings
  • For postcard backsides posted elsewhere in the forum
    • Delete if it shows postcard writings
  • What will happen if all the intended postcard backsides are pushed outside of Forum X?
    • Still many questionable sharing activities as it looks like adding only a limited number to infinity.

To me, the moderator’s job is easier in the blanket ban case, hence the 2nd pro listed in my OP. The blanket ban does not prohibit translation/transcription/language learning. It makes a specific case inconvenient for the sake of fairness. For more info, revisit Alternative 2 in the OP.

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175

@varn

This is a personal one-off comment and not the start of a new discussion - please accept that.

Since you cannot really evaluate my work as a moderator, I would kindly ask you not to make assumptions about it.

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176

He stays in his facts, but ignores the facts provided by others, if these facts don’t support his arguments.

If you want to “build a case”, you have to argue with counter-arguments if you want to stay credible in the discussion. You can’t just dismiss or even ignore other opinions. Its impolite to demand of others to read your own lengthy explanations, but dismiss the others’ explanations with a simple one-sentenced “I heard you, back to my arguments.”

I stated the fact that a minuscule amount of official cards is shown in the translation thread and argued that it isn’t worth it to change the terms and conditions, and explained why. I argued with juridical discretion. I stated the fact that data protection is about storage too. I got no meaningful answers at all.

In my experience, there are two sorts of people who act like this: Bosses who have put the idea of a project in their head and want to push it through, against concerns and risks voiced by others. Such bosses praise those who support their arguments and ignore or even despise those who have good counter-arguments. The second group are children who can’t accept that they don’t rule the world and throw a tantrum because they don’t want accept the opinions of others. We aren’t either of these, aren’t we?

If you want to build a case like an impertinent, pushy lawyer, you treat the counter-arguments casually or blank them out and just repeat and pressure forward your arguments by stating that they’re better, because you’re under the arrogant impression that you’ll win this case no matter what. If you want to build a case like a matter-of-fact, considerate lawyer, you’ll balance your arguments against the arguments of the other party. You’ll try to convince the judge (who will read both compositions) that your arguments are better by explaining why, by responding to the other’s argumentation and by finding new arguments which prop up your own ones.

If you want to build a case, you have to provide more than a theoretical argumentation. You have to substantiate and concretize. It really helps to reveal what this all is about because the other party will be able to understand it better if you offer examples to illustrate your problem.

I totally agree with @littlesthobo that this forum isn’t a discussion forum, but that @varn behaves as if it were. This topic has reached its limits. It’s my opinion too that @varn’s way of “discussion” is against the spirit of the forum.

And last but not least, @varn doesn’t stay in the facts because he has made himself the judge who rules which arguments are more “sound”, more “valid”:

I’m sorry, but this isn’t “staying in the facts”, but unobjective and impertinent. The judge is the one who decides; in this case, the judge are the admins who will ponder over the arguments stated and weigh them to find a solution.

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177

If you mention the translation topic in the terms and conditions, you’d put the idea of publishing postcards’ backsides into the heads of members who wouldn’t have gotten the idea themselves.

Even if you’d try to state clearly in the terms and conditions that this isn’t about allowing the publication, but only tolerating it, for the sake of help with translation problems, some members will understand that it is gererally allowed and basically ok to publish the written sides of postcards. Some will even transfer this understanding to the usage of other websites: “If its ok to publish them in the Postcrossing forum, I guess there’ll be no problem if I publish them on facebook.”

In my opinion you can’t mention the translation topic in the rules because the translation topic is in a grey area, in the area of juridical discretion which may change under the circumstances. Publishing the written sides is against the rules. The forum allows one exception because

  • a few members have the need for it;
  • it does affect only a minuscule amount of cards;
  • it’s better to have it under control of moderation, in an open topic where you can delete pictures easily;
  • it’s better to deal with it in your own responsability instead of pushing members in need of help to other platforms;
  • the Postcrossing forum is a friendly place where the members help each other out.

The juridical safer solution would be to close the translation topic and ignore and close each new request for help. But I don’t want that, and I appreciate it enormously that the admins and mods of this forum provide and tolerate a simple solution for translation help, even if it’s in the grey area of juridical discretion.

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