Sharing Postcrossers' addresses without permission

After re-reading prior to posting, the following may come across a bit intimidating. :wink: That is not my intention, I just want to lay the facts on the table. I know that (except a few bad apples as everywhere) no one intends to do any harm, but unfortunately the definition of ā€œharmā€ can differ significantly between persons (I know I personally are quite strict when it comes to privacy). When I say that certain actions are not compliant to EU legislation, I donā€™t want to finger-point to those currently doing it, instead my intention is to warn those that their actions may not be welcomed by everyone. Also, by quoting some of those who have responded in this topic, I donā€™t want to put them on the spot, their words are just good examples for me to explain the EU legal ramifications.

Letā€™s take a step back from the preferences of individuals and have a look at the legal framework we are standing on. Thatā€™s a difficult task, because privacy laws are extremely different across countries - from countries not even having any over countries like the USA, where (except for medical data, which is decently protected) there is almost no data protection to countries like Germany (historically) and now the complete European Union (EU), where data protection laws are very strict and fines for violations can be really high.

Disclaimer: Iā€™m not a lawyer! Iā€™ve dug rather deep into privacy legislation, but if you need legal counsel, please go to a lawyer specialized on data privacy legislation! The following is not legal counsel but just my personal understanding of the subject.

Postcrossing is a company registered in Portugal (and thus the EU) and represented by (I think) Portuguese citizens. That means that for the rules governing postcrossing.com (regardless where on postcrossing.com you are, forums or main site, as the telecommunications service regulations specify that a website owner is responsible for the rules on all areas of a domain, though not for the actions of individual users unless duly noted about them) Portuguese and harmonized EU legislation applies.

The EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) requires prior explicit voluntary consent before collecting, processing or sharing privacy data. There are some exceptions where legitimate interests allow collecting, processimng and sharing of privacy data (e.g. video surveilance against theft in a store - there must be a notice before you enter the surveilance area, so you can avoid it). There are many ways to obtain such consent, the main Postcrossing site does it in their rules, where it is stated that the address is required to be given to random other members for them to send a postcard to you, and no other use of the address is permitted (note that Postcrossing is not responsible if the user who go an address is abusing it by giving it to others, if you find out you can sue that user). By entering your address into your Postcrossing profile you agree to this use of your address, because that is stated in the rules you accepted. Round Robins (RR) work similarly: By sending your address to the RR host, you consent that it is sent to the RR members for the purpose of the RR only. Any other use of your address by these RR members is illegal, but neither Postcrossing nor the RR host are responsible, the misconducting member can be sued.

The RAS RR in its current form does not comply with the GDPR.

You cannot use the mere fact that someone has posted in the forum or accepted the forum rules as implying they are actively consenting to participate in the RAS RR - for this to work, the page where the forum rules are accepted would need to have a (by default empty) checkbox like ā€œcheck if you are fine with your address being used in thge RAS RRā€. For the RAS RR to be legal in the EU, you need to create an opt-in list where those forum members who are fine to have their address being shared for the RAS RR can enter themselves.

Legally, that would be an opt-out solution (ā€œyou agree unless you explicitly say that you disagreeā€), but the GDPR requires an opt-in (ā€œyou disagree unless you explicitly agreeā€), and the opt-in must be voluntarily, so you canā€™t tie it to accepting the forum rules, it must be a separate consent (but could be on the same page, see my checkbox suggestion above).

It should be the other way round: Donā€™t send a note to the group unless the person explicitly allows it. Or you could put it into the RR rules that by participating the user agrees to this sharing. As a new user will need to actively seek entry into your RR, that should be legally fine.

Having said that, thatā€™s the legal situation in the EU as I understand it. Members from outside the EU may have very different legal regulations, but Postcrossing as organization needs to comply with EU law, so the official forum rules and any other official communication (an FAQ thread pinned by @paulo or @meiadeleite might be considered official, though Iā€™m not sure) need to take this into account and should be clearly phrased that way to avoid any legal risk to Postcrossing. As long as no one is unhappy with the way things are handled, there is no problem (in German we have a saying ā€œWo kein KlƤger, da kein Richterā€, rough translation: No plaintiff, no judge, meaning breaking this law will only have consequences if someone actually complaints), the issue with that, of course, is that you cannot be sure the there will never be a complaint. There would have been a complaint from me if 'I had ever gotten a card from the RAS RR without having been asked first if thatā€™s fine. Yes, I understand that the idea of the RAS RR is the surprise, but remember that surprises can be unpleasant, and not all have the same taste. :smiley: The fact that so far no one complained does not mean no one ever will.

@meiadeleite: Thank you very much for confirming that the same strong privacy rules as on the main site are also implied by the forum rules! If you or @Feuerstuhl or @maleko would like my help with rephrasing the rules, please send me a private message, Iā€™m happy to help to the eytent of my knowledge. :smiley:

11 Likes

Havenā€™t I just mentioned the German respect for data security. :wink:

3 Likes

Yes, yes, yes! This would be, I think, a very simple and effective solution in addition to clarifying expectations in the Guidelines. (Once again, @shugal, I get so excited to see your replies; they are information parties! :partying_face:) As you said as well, having clear demarcation between consenting to Forum rules and consenting to RR/RAS rules would be of legal benefit not only to users, but to Postcrossing itself.

@meiadeleite, what do you think about adding such a feature? :heart:

2 Likes

Just a quick reply to thank everyone for sharing their input in this. As we hope itā€™s obvious for everyone by now, this is a not simple subject and needs some careful thought.

For the moment we just want to let you all know we are reading and thinking on how to go about this. Weā€™ll have an update soon with our thoughts.

9 Likes

Wowā€¦ Iā€™ve been around 4 years and I never knew there was a RAS RR and I only get an idea of how it works from this threadā€¦ but then it took me 3.5 years just to understand how on earth RRs work :rofl: So as a long-term member, this has never been an issue to me though I understand why it is discussed! And it is tricky!

The checkbox opt-in seems like a really good ideaā€¦but there is a but. If I am new somewhere and I have to check a box that I donā€™t understand, I will most likely not sign up. Explaining briefly what is a RAS RR to a new member, especially if not fully proficient in English, seems impossible to me (as I found the idea of RRs quite complicated initially even with my level of English. Actually there were translations of how it works but they still confused me for a while. It might just be me, but I see people sometimes with questions on things that are clear to me, so we all have something that baffles us sooner or later I guessā€¦).

2 Likes

An explanation of how the RAS/RRs/tags work would likely be separate, I imagine, from a check box asking for consent to have oneā€™s address distributed to an entire group, or to agree not to share addresses outside that group.

Itā€™s just like when you have to check a box before sending an ā€œofficialā€ postcard to confirm that you are aware of the rules and agree to them; the rules are explained in detail elsewhere, but at the checkbox, there is a summary to remind you to what you are agreeing, as a final safeguard of sorts. The summary of the rules at the checkbox does not have to be as complicated as the ā€œhow-toā€ of the activity.

Once again, Iā€™d like to reiterate that I have no problem with RAS/RRs and the enjoyment they provide to their members; some people seem to be interpreting that I do, for some reason. I personally donā€™t care what the rules and procedures of those groups are, as long as those of us outside those groups have some clear, written assurance that we will not be subjected to those procedures without prior consent. No matter how unlikely people think that situation would be. Thatā€™s really all.

2 Likes

Yes, true. But it is still quite complicated I think :frowning:

Yes, maybe some sort of summary of what would happen (e.g. address used in circles of friends or whichever way to summarise it) rather than a detailed explanation - which can be available as a link.

Just ideas anyway, I do note Pauloā€™s post saying they are thinking about it :slight_smile:

1 Like

I think you shuld not be forced to deal with this box straight away when you register. It just is somewhere in your profile, it is unchecked by default and there should be a link to an information about RAS, RR and so on.

1 Like

And yet the ultimate result will most likely be the end of any spontaneous offers of good wishes, congratulations or condolences. It was a simple concept for a RR, pay it forward. To lose the kindness behind the whole sharing idea of Postcrossing is tragic. I get it. Itā€™s a legal thing.

My last question is why are any of the RRs acceptable without all of the implicit rules, checkboxes, etc. When you join a group, you are joining with people you may not know who are going to be given your address. They could, in theory, keep your address info and use it for other purposes outside just the group you joined. Wouldnā€™t that be the same situation? You lose control of your personal info?

3 Likes

I donā€™t see why this would be the case at all.

2 Likes

Itā€™s the true definition of the RAS RR.

2 Likes

All I am proposing is that Postcrossers who do not wish to be nominated for unexpected deliveries should not be declared eligible for them by virtue of signing up for Postcrossing or using the Forum.

2 Likes

The kindness is already lost if somebody shares my address without my consent.

4 Likes

I will have to share this story here, because clearly there is a misperception about good intentions = no problems at all x what is being proposed.

Many years ago, I received a apparent RAS card where I was basically told that god wanted the best for me and that my struggle was him putting me on my path. The person went on and said that despite the fact that she didnā€™t agree with my life choices (meaning being queer, for what I remember), Iā€™d be forgiven and she was sending me the card because she wished me the best.

I knew postcrossing well enough to know that it brings me more joy than any other thing and still I felt unwelcome. Also, being already in a tough spot in my life, reading that message wasnā€™t that nice so I just stopped and ā€œdisappearedā€ for a while (in life too).

My points being:

  • Just because someone never knew about any issues, that doesnā€™t mean they donā€™t exist.
  • Kindness takes many forms and good intentions donā€™t justify everything
  • Most importantly: no one is trying to stop RAS from happening (which Iā€™m sure have brought many smiles to many people - me included), we are just trying to ensure a way where no one makes assumptions about addresses being shared around just for the smiles.

Because this last point is, in my perspective, the issue. Thatā€™s why I said ā€œapparent RAS cardā€ on my story, because I donā€™t know if it was an official RAS situation or something else, but someone I had confided my address to previously assumed that she could share it with other people just because I was quite active in the forum. After all, the intentions were good.

Soā€¦ RAS? Yes, please, keep on doing it! :smile:
But why wouldnā€™t we try to make it safer and nicer to everyone? These two things arenā€™t mutually exclusive. :slightly_smiling_face:

Edit: I propose a ā€œbadgeā€ of some sorts in peopleā€™s profile saying that this person consents (or doesnā€™t) to RAS. I donā€™t even know if this is possible in technical terms, but I thought it would be easier if we could just look at someoneā€™s profile and see that info (like when we see on the website that someone is interested in private swaps, for example).

10 Likes

In the Random Act of Smileness RR, all participants who propose a name are traceable as the source. The guidelines ask that when you send cards, you be specific in your message as to the name of the RR, the group number and the person who gave your information to the host. Itā€™s not anonymous as the host always has the specifics.

Look I donā€™t like the occasional creepy calls Iā€™ve gotten from someone tracking me from the Official Site when they got my address info (with my permission, I know, I know). Iā€™ve gotten snarky remarks about my profile and been thoroughly taken to task for the use of the word ā€œexoticā€ when referring to animals. I donā€™t think that kind of harassment falls with the community guidelines.

Again, I do get it. I get all the concern about privacy in a day and age when there really isnā€™t anyā€¦no matter the rules and terms.

I donā€™t want to send anything to someone who Iā€™m not assured will be receptive. There are bad apples in Postcrossing, but the acceptance of the terms are overwhelmingly supported here.

3 Likes

Not adding anything to the topic of conversation - just want to say that Iā€™m sorry someone had the nerve to send you something like that. Please know that it says nothing about you and everything about them. You are loved, and you ARE welcome. Ironically, she missed the fact that being a member of the queer community is obviously not a choice, but being kind and welcoming is - and she made the wrong choice.

13 Likes

Once again, you are referring to people who wish to participate in and be eligible for RAS activities.

I, along with other Postcrossers here, am referring to people who do not wish to participate in or be eligible for deliveries outside the ones to which they have agreed, but have no official way of indicating their preference.

As you can see, @alter3ch0 has been the unfortunate victim of someoneā€™s allegedly ā€œgood intentions,ā€ which discouraged her from participating in the Postcrossing community for a time. That is flagrantly contradictory to, in your own words, ā€œthe true definition of RAS.ā€

I have previously cited the example of a very sweet, well-intending Postcrosser who sought to acquire clandestinely the address of a woman, unknown to her and not involved in Forum activities, who had recently endured two highly emotional and ostensibly traumatic life events consecutively. This kind-hearted Postcrosser quickly recognized that a surprise delivery to this woman, in her grief, had the potential to cause her further upset, and withdrew the request for her address until the woman could be contacted to give permission for cards of encouragement.

This is precisely what I would like to seeā€“less so for my sake, and more so for Postcrossers who may be vulnerable in some way or another to unpleasant surprises. Just like Echo said, spreading joy and respecting personal boundaries are not mutually exclusive.

As for the ā€œcreepy callsā€ you mentioned, you do not deserve harassment, even if you have consented to allow another user to possess your address. If this happens again, I would not hesitate to report any abuse of your privacy. I once received an inappropriate private message from a Postcrosser who had drawn my address to send an ā€œofficialā€ postcard. After reporting him, the mods swiftly closed his account. While you or I may not have been discouraged from continuing to participate in Postcrossing by these experiences, others might, and wouldnā€™t that be, as you said before, tragic?

First, regular Random Acts of Smileness (RAS) are fine as 'I understand and practice them: Getting surprise cards and sending surprise cards to Postcrossers I have shared my address with, and they shared theirs. The only issue is the RAS RR, where addresses are given to other Postcrossers without their prior consent. This missing prior consent is the only issue here.

Second, no one wants to end the RAS RR. All we want is to make it work in a correct, legal and Postcrossing-rules-compliant way. Several suggestions were made to achieve this goal by allowing users to actively allow sharing of their address. It is now up to the Postcrossing team to check what can be implemented without causing too much work. Until such a solution is implemented, the RAS RR members should be very careful whose addresses they share. Best would be to ask permission first, but I understand that total surprise is important to many of them - not that I can iunderstand that - if I know a nice postcard is comming, Iā€™m alreay happily looking forward to it, while with a surprise I can only start to be happy several days later when it arrivesā€¦ :smiley:

3 Likes

We want to start by thanking everyoneā€™s pondered feedback on this topic; also, for the patience in waiting for our reply on this.

We have considered all the ideas and the issues mentioned and have decided on a solution that we believe addresses (no pun intended!) this in a balanced way. But before we share what updates we are introducing today, we want to share some thoughts:

  • As we hope every knows, the postcards exchanges in Postcrossing are the ones assigned by the Postcrossing system which shares, in a controlled way, the members addresses it has for the particular purpose of sending a postcard to another random member. This is regulated by the website Terms which clearly mention that an address provided by Postcrossing is only to be used for the purpose of sending a postcard it assigns.

  • The Forum on the other hand, is a place for the community to discuss, hang out and to connect. Over the years, the members started organizing their own postcards activities between themselves in the Forum. These activities are not official Postcrossing activities as they are not monitored or regulated by us. To make that clear, that fact was later added to the forum rules (now called Forum Guidelines) which go as far as to remind everyone that those activities are done at each personā€™s risk ā€” simply because Postcrossing has no effective way to monitor these activities done directly between postcrossers.

  • In other words, the forum is a tool used by the members to connect among themselves. As an example, if two people organize an event over their gmail.com accounts, that doesnā€™t make it a Google event. Likewise, if two people plan a robbery over their iPhones, Apple is not responsible for that (still, please donā€™t plan a robbery through the Forum!).

Nonetheless, we do care about the community and peopleā€™s personal information, and some points brought up on this thread are valid concerns. Although we believe this forum is already a safe place to be in, we think it can be made even better, without us getting in the way of the activities members do.

Hence, today we are making two updates to remind people about the use of otherā€™s personal information in their forum activities.

The first update, is to add the following to the Forum Guidelines:

ā€œBe mindful of the private information, including addresses, that others entrust with you. Use it only for the purposes for which it was given to you. If youā€™re not sure whether someone is OK with having their information shared with another person, ask them first.ā€

Moreover, we are also editing the About (or How to) topics of the #games-activities (and all its sub-categories) and #trades-requests-offers:spread-the-joy categories to remind everyone that addresses received in the context of those activities should only to be used for the purpose they were given for.

To be clear, this is not a change of rules ā€” these are just reminders of what are good practices (here, and everywhere really). With these updates, we aim to emphasize those practices so that they are more present in everyoneā€™s minds when organizing or participating in their forum activities.

We believe these updates will make it more clear how otherā€™s personal information should be used and make this Forum an even better place to be.

Lastly, and as it has become obvious on this topic, this is a complicated subject and it is hard enough to discuss it on a one-on-one basis, let alone on a public forum. Therefore, we will be closing this topic soon, but if anyone has further concerns, please do get in touch.

10 Likes

Before the topic is closed, I want to just put in the reminder that NON-RAS requests also concern the issue of sharing addresses. In the old forum anyway, there were a lot fo requests to send cards to people who had nothing to do with Postcrossing other than that a Postcrosser would request a non-RAS card to say ā€œget well soonā€ or ā€œcongratulationsā€ or whatever. It should be clear that you should not send Aunt Janeā€™s address to people so that she gets a zillion cards on her birthday unless Aunt Jane is already good with that.

9 Likes